tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17174057.post7489775889424566956..comments2023-08-12T09:06:19.561-04:00Comments on english-tamil: Caste: I am not, but I amSuresh EThttp://www.blogger.com/profile/06634417697318636500noreply@blogger.comBlogger36125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17174057.post-77045714645954961072008-12-29T01:08:00.000-05:002008-12-29T01:08:00.000-05:00According to me, the kind of bias against Muslims ...According to me, the kind of bias against Muslims that prevails both in India as well as the west is a carefully constructed image by both the print and visual media. It enables the people in power to create a fear psychosis among the people so that no one questions their actions. A genocide in Gujarat or daily deaths in Iraq doesnt get the same/any coverage in the media as compared to a Mumbai/UK blasts. Atleast in India, this can be attributed to the fact that majority of the people in media are Hindus.I am not in any way trying to justify the killing of innocent civilians but a careful look will reveal that in most cases these activities occur as a reaction to atrocities committed by Hindus/WestRajhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06035264208572798400noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17174057.post-1980404852050414082008-12-28T23:44:00.000-05:002008-12-28T23:44:00.000-05:00My view on Muslims has changed quite a bit in that...My view on Muslims has changed quite a bit in that I situate their religiosity and their politics. I understand that their affinity to their religion is a product of <I>othering</I> more than anything else. I'm open to the possibility that there is a systemic bias against Muslims in India (I do think that there isn't enough research to establish this accurately). So if there is anger over being "left out", I understand that too.<BR/><BR/>In terms of nationality, I do not have any issue with Muslims or anyone if they don't feel like "Indians." I don't think everyone has to subscribe to a statehood.<BR/><BR/>So I don't have a right-wing kind of dislike for Muslims. But I do have a problem with Islam just like I do with Hinduism and other religions. Of course, the terms will vary.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03033167434882586296noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17174057.post-22922611863440216742008-12-28T22:31:00.000-05:002008-12-28T22:31:00.000-05:00Suresh,I actually heard the podcast after reading ...Suresh,<BR/><BR/>I actually heard the podcast after reading this article and noticed the contradiction in the views you expressed. Sorry, I didnt notice the date on the podcast.Now, I see where you are coming from.Does this also hold good for the views you had on muslims back then?Rajhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06035264208572798400noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17174057.post-83433602769613571842008-12-28T20:01:00.000-05:002008-12-28T20:01:00.000-05:00Raj,Thanks.I agree with your disagreement too. I'v...Raj,<BR/><BR/>Thanks.<BR/><BR/>I agree with your disagreement too. I've spoken about this a few times before and I've mentioned it in one of my comments for this post as well.<BR/>--quote--<BR/>If someone read some of my pro-Hindu posts from 3, 4 years ago, he/she could accuse me of being an upper-caste mouthpiece. At that point, all I can say is, "yes, you're right and I'm sorry about it." Only my recent posts can vindicate me, at least partially, from that accusation. Not stubborn polemics.<BR/>--unquote--<BR/><BR/>I don't if you thought if I still carried the same views (even after reading this post) or just wanted to mention that I had I said something else in the podcast.<BR/><BR/>Anyway, just wanted to clarify.Suresh EThttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06634417697318636500noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17174057.post-27658691942138763112008-12-28T19:30:00.000-05:002008-12-28T19:30:00.000-05:00Hi Suresh,I stumbled across your blog when I was s...Hi Suresh,<BR/><BR/>I stumbled across your blog when I was searching for a review of the movie 'Aval Appadithan' and boy what a discovery it has been. Apart from the fact that your review of the movie was very good, it also gave me a chance to see to go through your views on other topics. I cannot agree more with your views on many topics which you had discussed in your podcasts and writings. I admire your rational outlook on various issues.However, in one of your podcasts where you talk about self and inter caste marriage, you raised a view that the hindu religion was not as fundamentalist as the other ones and there was no need to abolish caste as long as it is regulated. I beg to differ with this view of yours. Personally, I feel that the hindu religion is one of the most rigid and vicious systems which has been set up with the sole purpose of creating inequality among its followers. Theists often proclaim that the purpose of religion is to elevate one's self and make him/her a more matured individual. The hindu religion is an exception to this. It thrives on the inequality it perpetuates among its followers. This doctrine is followed in each and every scripture and 'holy' book of this 'great' religion, including the Bhagavad Gita. There is no room for regulation in such a rigid system. To regulate such a system would mean to re-write the whole system which is impossible. A dalit can easily become a muslim or a christian if he wishes but never can he become a brahmin during his lifetime and however qualified he may be,he will still considered a outcaste within this system.<BR/><BR/>Keep up the good work.Rajhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06035264208572798400noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17174057.post-16768384605253945452008-12-19T22:39:00.000-05:002008-12-19T22:39:00.000-05:00Cool, thanks.Cool, thanks.Suresh EThttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06634417697318636500noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17174057.post-35258149072670999672008-12-19T22:04:00.000-05:002008-12-19T22:04:00.000-05:00I give up Suresh. Peace.I give up Suresh. Peace.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17174057.post-2689647539548232712008-12-19T20:03:00.000-05:002008-12-19T20:03:00.000-05:00If you have lot more to say, please do. Because, w...If you have lot more to say, please do. Because, what you've said so far has been quite stupid.Suresh EThttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06634417697318636500noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17174057.post-31869112517144869682008-12-19T19:07:00.000-05:002008-12-19T19:07:00.000-05:00Why would I post anywhere else? I am not attackin...Why would I post anywhere else? I am not attacking any community. I just pointed out flaws in your blog while bashing you just like you point out flaws in the society while bashing Brahmins. <BR/><BR/>You start of with the point - a privileged person may not be aware they are privileged - point taken. Right from there, you go about venting your feelings about Brahmins and coin a word Brahminism and encourage people to not stop censuring Brahmins - you have used the word Brahmins and Brahminism interchangeably and cleverly vented out your strong feelings towards Brahmins. You end with two statements which resonate with your initial point.<BR/><BR/>Though I have lot more to say, I think you are going to delete this comment too.. I would part with this - Judging someone by caste or religion or whatever privilege or under privilege is the worst thing you can do. Getting intimidated/instigated is a problem and a bigger problem.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17174057.post-57296765105269968462008-12-19T18:11:00.000-05:002008-12-19T18:11:00.000-05:00Anon - Comment deleted. If you didn't save the tex...Anon - Comment deleted. If you didn't save the text elsewhere and need it for pasting it in a different blog I'll mail it to you.Suresh EThttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06634417697318636500noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17174057.post-43562761630942207182008-12-15T16:50:00.000-05:002008-12-15T16:50:00.000-05:00Anon wrote:I'm sure a lot of casteists (especially...Anon wrote:<BR/><I>I'm sure a lot of casteists (especially brahmins), would not be able to appreciate this. I think it's because they are like fish in a sea. Fish does not know that its in a sea, until it gets a chance to jump out and have a look. Our brahmins, never get that chance and are thoroughly unaware of their racism throughout their life.<BR/>Others like thevars,vanniars,gounders etc. know such a thing exists, but they are more scoundrels than brahmins because, knowingly they practise racism against dalits.</I><BR/>One of the few anonymous comments that revels in brevity & insight. Thanks.Prasad Venkathttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11089741792503218617noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17174057.post-85639745752023405282008-12-12T22:33:00.000-05:002008-12-12T22:33:00.000-05:00As the comment above says, most of you are idiots....As the comment above says, most of you are idiots. RV, bmurali and now this anon are some fine examples for that. What's puzzling is why they won't shut up instead of leaving stupid comments on matters they have little grasp of.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17174057.post-76986449601834060022008-12-12T19:17:00.000-05:002008-12-12T19:17:00.000-05:00Disclaimer: This is not a reply in the strictest c...Disclaimer: This is not a reply in the strictest connotation of the word. Much of what is here is not related to the actual post, but thoughts related to the broader subject of the post.<BR/><BR/>Why is that our Tamilian thoughts, debates and political atmosphere is saturated with Caste? Caste is a nation wide phenomenon but I do not think it paints as bold a stroke in the meme of any other state as in Tamil nadu.<BR/><BR/>Perhaps the problem with philosophy is that there is no end to arguments back and forth - peel one layer and there will be another layer of thought to analyze and argue about.<BR/><BR/>Simply put, every person has a freedom to be a casteist, racist or whatever he or she wants to be. It is also in out right to say that is ridiculous. <BR/><BR/>But, before we take a holier than thou attitude towards these "idiots", let us however analyze a little bit. We are all predujiced. We adore beautiful people (how much control does one have over that), intelligence (again a factor of genetics) and sometimes revere sportsmen and filmstars beyond what they deserve. All the while, we look down upon so many good, honest humble people for reasons nothing to do with caste. <BR/><BR/>This is not to apologize for the casteists, but just to point out that strictly speaking, judging s inherently filled with prejudice. But, of course, we cannot help it.<BR/><BR/>I am not going to lie and say that a casteist thought has never come to my mind (and casteist means that a dalit judging a thevar to be arrognat when he does not know that person and vice versa). It has, plenty of times. Casteist, racist thoughts, dark thoughts filled with prejudice and sometimes even hatred. If we are honest with ourselves, perhaps many of us will agree. But, the answer lies in choice. I choose to ignore them, I choose to know that these are not good thoughts - but come into me because of perhaps eveolution on the African plains when we were monkeys, when sting bonding with one sect of monkeys meant access to food and mates, and are of no relevance to the present.<BR/><BR/>Human beings were flawed, and are flawed. It comes with the model, sorry. The only way any society can make progress is the acknolwedge that and move forward. <BR/><BR/>It is right of the few to discriminate seriously based on caste - their right to hate. We cannot take that away from them. In real life, even in the caste hate filled atmosphere of Tamil Nadu, I find people of all sects to have the lovely intrinsic good in them.<BR/><BR/>If we choose to talk about real problems more than these for a change and just let people who want to be casteist be casteist, in fact encourage them saying it is their God given right to a bad choice, but we think it is repulsive, it will reduce.<BR/><BR/>BTW, what caste I am is pretty unimportant - if you are thinking what caste I am, to quote the author of the post, why do you care?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17174057.post-55300263276951090312008-11-22T15:38:00.000-05:002008-11-22T15:38:00.000-05:00Bharath,I had mentioned scriptures only as an exam...Bharath,<BR/><BR/>I had mentioned scriptures only as an example. I have issues with the notion of "essence", "truth" and "knowledge" even otherwise. It's not that I always use them quotes, but I try to be aware that they are loaded terms and cannot be used rigidly to drive a philosophical point.<BR/><BR/>I do agree that very often the appropriators of an idea/ideology/philosophical school of though etc., are taken for what's appropriated by them. Classic example: communism = Stalin = Gulag, genocide etc.<BR/>I understand what you're saying.<BR/><BR/>Nevertheless, there are issues that overwhelm perspectives other the one presented by social reality. For example -- sorry for repeating -- most Brahmins on a good day would say that no one becomes a Brahmin by birth, it's acquired (and that anyone can become one if they "tried"). But the same people will also claim that they are born Brahmins. I don't know if they are making a conscious, nuanced distinction between theology and social reality or just being airheads who don't know what they are talking about. It's probably the ambiguity why people don't care whether or not they represent the "thanmai".Suresh EThttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06634417697318636500noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17174057.post-30077375027255378042008-11-22T13:48:00.000-05:002008-11-22T13:48:00.000-05:00(disclaimer: i am travelling and unfortunately can...(disclaimer: i am travelling and unfortunately cant do justice to this post or your comment. here is what I can respond in a single 5-minute go)<BR/><BR/>/* One can lecture me about what the scriptures "actually" say and how it's been misinterpreted/distorted by its practitioners, but I'll still have a problem with the "purest" form of "thanmai". */<BR/><BR/><BR/>1. I was not going for "thanmai" of scriptures. I was going for the essense that is inherent in every issue that two people might debate on. <BR/><BR/>2. My reference to thanmai did not presuppose that "thanmai" = goodness/agreeable. Let us asusme for a moment that the article you linked is 100% true and everything is an "interpretation". And truth is just a function of different moving parts. If we reached an interpretation of *that* "thanmai" ourselves without the coloring of others - then <BR/>that should be enough to agree or disagree.<BR/><BR/>3. My problem is when people decide on the "thanmai" purely based on who is arguing for/against it. One's pursuit of knowledge should be more rigorous than that.<BR/><BR/>On the larger argument of "thanmai". It is unfortunate that all the "thinking" that has been done by people living in the indian subcontinent on this subject has been buried under religion. The merging of philosophy and religion in this part of the world is an atrocious loss of knowledge.<BR/><BR/>On the larger issue of Dalit & castes. You know, having lived in nellai maavattam and having seen this in a much magnified reality, I wish I could help to change something. Somehow stop this. But I know I can't. I foresee all of India being either muslim or christian in another 60 years - maybe it will happen then. Or maybe not.Hawkeyehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10761232960391758109noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17174057.post-48679024174392954842008-11-21T10:45:00.000-05:002008-11-21T10:45:00.000-05:00[2] - Upper in upper caste cannot be put in quotes...[2] - Upper in upper caste cannot be put in quotes because we are referring to a system in which hierarchy is intrinsic. To argue that all castes are equal -- by using quotes -- is flawed considering what constitutes caste.<BR/><BR/>i would never care for the genotype of someone who can think like this. well written and neat.Dr.Rudhranhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02829460079870952908noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17174057.post-4825812303450489192008-11-20T16:33:00.000-05:002008-11-20T16:33:00.000-05:00how come you stopped giving 'fitting' replies to m...how come you stopped giving 'fitting' replies to morons like murali and now this guy RV?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17174057.post-3526055380347708392008-11-20T14:17:00.000-05:002008-11-20T14:17:00.000-05:00One point.I am one of those who always identify my...One point.<BR/><BR/>I am one of those who always identify myself as an Iyer before posting a comment. My reasons happen to be different.<BR/><BR/>I am new to the blog space and I frequently see posts/replies which will simply assume that I am a brahmin (I am born of the Iyer caste) and start bashing my motivation instead of answering points. So I started mentioning my caste as the first point whenever I post something about Tamil Nadu. Makes it easier for people to start bashing me up - they don't have to waste time reading what I wrote.<BR/><BR/>Recently, I forgot to mention it in a comment I posted on Shri Rudran's blog - bang came the reply talking about my genotype. It is amazing!<BR/><BR/>Just wanted to point out that there are other alternative, valid (at least to me) reasons to proclaim the caste in which one is born.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17174057.post-69540785431210797892008-11-18T11:52:00.000-05:002008-11-18T11:52:00.000-05:00The page I tried to link in my previous comment (o...<A HREF="http://www.focusing.org/apm_papers/madison2.html" REL="nofollow">The page I tried to link in my previous comment</A> (on truth and essence).<BR/>http://www.focusing.org/apm_papers/madison2.htmlSuresh EThttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06634417697318636500noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17174057.post-30391315467338155102008-11-17T23:16:00.000-05:002008-11-17T23:16:00.000-05:00Recently, I happened to find myself interviewing s...Recently, I happened to find myself interviewing some middle-aged fellow in Triplicane who teaches the Rig Veda to youngsters here and apparently, was doing a 'good job' of it. I am normally very prejudiced against such people, for, I, more or less, know the kind of people that teach these Brahminical scriptures and what their take is on castes and where 'we' stand in the caste ladder. It was disgusting to find him be exactly the kind I wished I didn't have to talk to. He was against teaching the vedas to people from other castes and wished to go back to the ages when the Brahmin was only a 'poor' priest. Ironically, having to abide to the rules of being part of a newspaper, there's only so much I could argue with the fellow (knowing fully well that it was all 'pointless'). If these are the kind of people that are propagating the Vedas and their meanings, I will be very surprised to see a future generation of Brahmins having a different view of the caste ladder from what is espoused by most.<BR/>And don't even get started on how embarrassing it is for a person like me to visit a friend (MBC) and having his mom say, "Oh, you're a Brahmin? He was saying. Please, please, sit on the chair and eat. Also, do you want me to get some plastic plates from outside?"<BR/>!<BR/>Of course, I'm hardly suffering as much as an oppressed Dalit does. But well, maybe that's why she/he has people sympathising and arguing for her/him. I guess I have to put up with being categorised as a Brahmin. It's probably like being labelled a liar even though you aren't one, for classificational purposes and having to explain to every new person that even though you are a liar, you don't like lying.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17174057.post-43011500841529152682008-11-17T21:18:00.000-05:002008-11-17T21:18:00.000-05:00Bharath,//All your argumments presuppose that one'...Bharath,<BR/>//All your argumments presuppose that one's arguments are always influenced by his caste (with or without his knowledge).// - I disagree. But I'll try to read the post again to see if I've meant this anywhere. (Or you can quote, if it's a particular line/passage that made you think so.)<BR/><BR/>Meanwhile, I'll clarify, just in case. My argument is that being a part of caste, depending upon the case, makes you privileged or underprivileged. I didn't say that being privileged will make it impossible to see things <I>otherwise</I>. For I consider myself as an example that proves it (even though one can question the authenticity of my politics). I think the post is quite clear on this:<BR/>"Being in this privileged position enables us to form a worldview that is <B>often</B> devoid of critical assessment of power structures that bind us. For we are not at the bottom of the pyramid; status quo, as long as it enables our mobility, is not a problem [1]"<BR/><BR/>The post basically tries to problematize the sense of superiority and entitlement that many upper caste people exude. It also tries to posit why status quo is desirable for many. It doesn't try to find "solutions".<BR/><BR/>Deconstruction's primary problem is with the notion that there is an inherent truth in everything, while truth, "thanmai" are almost always human constructs. Life is not full of arithmetic setups; A and B cannot replicate results by applying the same values. <BR/><BR/>Besides "thanmai" is irrelevant. That's what I've tried to present under the 'The Social Brahmin' section. One can lecture me about what the scriptures "actually" say and how it's been misinterpreted/distorted by its practitioners, but I'll still have a problem with the "purest" form of "thanmai".<BR/><BR/><A><BR/>This page</A> makes for a very interesting read on both thanmai (essence) and truth: <BR/>--quote--<BR/> Derrida's deconstructive attack on what he calls "logocentrism" is liberating in that, among other things, it frees us from the tyranny of two particularly insidious notions which, from the beginning, have dominated philosophy: the notions of totality and essence.<BR/><BR/>The notion of "totality," i.e, the idea that reality is One, and is, consequently, the proper object of a Unified Science, is oppressive because it invariably leads to the suppression of all sorts of loose ends to things (and to people) which cannot or will not (which refuse) to be fittled neatly into the System. <BR/>….<BR/>The notion of "essence" is also oppressive and fully merits being deconstructed. "Essence" is the grounding notion of philosophical science, the that-without-which it could not be. Science or Knowledge is, by definition, the knowing of what something is (its "whatness" [quidditas] or essence). The metaphysical presupposition behind this epistemic endeavor is that a thing is indeed just precisely what it is and not something else; essentialism upholds the rule of the Principle of Identity, the cornerstone of logocentrism. <BR/>--unquote--<BR/><BR/>It's up to you do decide whether or not it's a coincidence that you have a certain view and your belonging to a certain caste. Only you have a psychoanalytic view of your life's trajectory. And as far the post in concerned, this realization -- about caste, race etc. -- is quite crucial for one's political views.<BR/><BR/>I didn't apologize as much as I felt sorry. But I might as well apologize, regardless of whether my views are going to change in future.Suresh EThttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06634417697318636500noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17174057.post-16445481965410845632008-11-17T16:14:00.000-05:002008-11-17T16:14:00.000-05:00Suresh,Your post makes sense at many levels. But a...Suresh,<BR/><BR/>Your post makes sense at many levels. But at certain levels, I begin to disagree. Its hard for me to articulate it but I'll try my best.<BR/><BR/>You have ignored the "merit" of each issue that is independent of external factors and exists within itself. The truth. All your argumments presuppose that one's arguments are always influenced by his caste (with or without his knowledge). Even if its true - it should be moot. Every issue has its own "thanmai". The "thanmai" has its own truth, regardless of how others interpret it. That truth should prevail regardless of who is arguing for it or against it. That is the criteria you should use to make your own judgements.<BR/><BR/>Essentially a recap of the "mei porul kaanbathu aridhu" kural (which is an excellent kural btw).<BR/><BR/>Your post (and many others) shows that you have moved from the level of "thanmai" (the central factors)to the level of the "stakeholders" (tangential factors) and are judging the "thanmai" based on the caste of those stakeholders. Its broken at that place.<BR/><BR/>You are trying to approach a solution to a problem using the wrong tools.<BR/><BR/>P.S:<BR/><BR/>1. If you get into the existential question of what motivates me to disagree at all - maybe it is because of my caste. Who knows? As per your post says - one is unaware of the extent of his caste's influence - so motiovations are moot here. lets not discuss that.<BR/><BR/>2. Don't apologize for your past posts already. Life is a long marathon. Not a sprint. Unless you stick to an opinion just for the ego of it - you can safely assume that you will change your mind on most of your current opinions too.Hawkeyehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10761232960391758109noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17174057.post-82012732626240559222008-11-16T22:37:00.000-05:002008-11-16T22:37:00.000-05:00Fine Suresh, I may have condensed or reduced the c...Fine Suresh, I may have condensed or reduced the content of my explanation to derive the result. But as the "new incident" which you pointed out as no coincidence is the simple reason to point that the situation in TN is "Eye for an Eye".<BR/><BR/>I did go through the links on post modernism and post colonialism. Here I would like to say that you are doing the same mistake that Arundhathi Roy is doing. That is by applying a western concept to Indian situation. You may rubbish it as distorted comment but you will soon come to the realization of the gaps in applying these concepts in the Indian context. <BR/><BR/>Hope that piece of reconstruction works on you!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17174057.post-45078895443554410962008-11-13T20:55:00.000-05:002008-11-13T20:55:00.000-05:00வடவூர், Sharepoint & தமிழ் நெஞ்சம் - நன்றிAno...வடவூர், Sharepoint & தமிழ் நெஞ்சம் - நன்றி<BR/><BR/>Anon - Indeed, both your points are quite in place.Suresh EThttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06634417697318636500noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17174057.post-87571410824687674852008-11-13T12:34:00.000-05:002008-11-13T12:34:00.000-05:00Excellent suresh. Keep up the good work. I'm sure ...Excellent suresh. Keep up the good work. I'm sure a lot of casteists (especially brahmins), would not be able to appreciate this. I think it's because they are like fish in a sea. Fish does not know that its in a sea, until it gets a chance to jump out and have a look. Our brahmins, never get that chance and are thoroughly unaware of their racism throughout their life.<BR/> Others like thevars,vanniars,gounders etc. know such a thing exists, but they are more scoundrels than brahmins because, knowingly they practise racism against dalits.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com